Shannel Winslow – Master of Performance Management Transcript
Intro: [00:00:00] Who wants coffee? Who wants a pot of coffee? I just made coffee. You want a cup of coffee? Sure, here you go! Who wants coffee? Anybody else want coffee? And now it’s time for the man with the caffeine, the new tropics for the brain. It’s @CoffeeWithMike, hang in, hang tight, grab your cup and let’s get this thing started.
[00:00:27] Mike: [00:00:27] Hey guys, welcome back to Java Chat. We got another wonderful guest with us here today by Shannel Winslow, and she was a referral by another guest that we’ve had on the show by the name of Dave Char. If you guys remember that interview, we had a blast and Dave said, “Hey, you gotta talk to my friend, Shannel.”
[00:00:42] I was like, cool. Send her over. You know, and we connected on LinkedIn and had a couple of short conversations. I said, “Oh yeah, we need to have you on Java Chat.” This is good. So, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate you coming in, hanging out for our Java Chat.
[00:00:58] Shannel Winslow: [00:00:58] Thank you for having me.
[00:01:01] Mike: [00:01:01] Shannel, you’re kind of in the same realm as Dave, correct? I mean, there’s some slight nuance differences in what you guys do, but you’re definitely in the realm of leadership and organizational change.Give us some background about who Shannel Winslow is. Who are you and what do you do?
[00:01:18] Shannel Winslow: [00:01:18] So I am a practicing IO Psychology Practitioner.
[00:01:23] Mike: [00:01:23] Okay. No, we just had this discussion previously that IO is not what I think it is. So you might want to dig into that.
[00:01:30] Shannel Winslow: [00:01:30] Just from the basic groundwork of what IO is, it’s the study of human behavior at work. What we do is we have data-driven methods and this is through survey panels. We just collect data and we feed it into different points that impact people. For example, talent development systems, election practices, culture engagement, organization design, but our fundamental is basically around the data. And, you’re not alone. Not too many people know
[00:02:07] Mike: [00:02:07] You’re an analytical, aren’t ya?
[00:02:13]Shannel Winslow: [00:02:13] Yeah.
[00:02:16] Mike: [00:02:16] I’m sitting here. I’m going data, data, data, data, data.
[00:02:21] Shannel Winslow: [00:02:21] It’s fantastic. It’s actually, I didn’t even realize I love data.
[00:02:26] Mike: [00:02:26] I’m going to dig into that for a second. How did that all of a sudden just like, hm.
[00:02:33] Shannel Winslow: [00:02:33] Well, you know, you don’t just wake up and you go, “I love data.” You know, some people do, but that just wasn’t the way I felt about this whole thing. You know, I realized that I could leverage data to tell a story. So one of the things that people don’t know about me is I’m very, I’m ultra shy. People are like what? But yeah, I’m shy.
[00:02:51]Mike: [00:02:51] Yeah. The way this has started, you aren’t shy. That’s a bold-faced lie.
[00:02:58] Shannel Winslow: [00:02:58] So I am shy and what I learned is that, you know, it was very difficult for me to get up in front of people and say “Cause I said so” and “I want to do this because I said so” or “We should do this because I said so.” And I think that’s a real kind of ego—
[00:03:12] Mike: [00:03:12] Memories of the eighties.
[00:03:18]Shannel Winslow: [00:03:18] I got this, this, this thing. And I was just like, what is this whole IO thing? And I took that to the program director, Dr. Julia Akin at the University of Maryland. And she was like, “You’re going to love data by the time you’re done with this program.” I was like, I don’t know I’m not feeling the statistics and data and all that stuff. Sorry, it wasn’t for me. I like people, you know, so.
[00:03:48] Mike: [00:03:48] Well, says the shy woman in the corner.
[00:03:59] Shannel Winslow: [00:03:59] And, so she showed me that data, you know, we can use to tell that story. And you use that data to be able, whether it’s qualitative or quantitative data. You know, when you’re able to go back to it. People go. All right. All right. What’s this thing you’re talking about again?
[00:04:17] Mike: [00:04:17] Yeah. That actually makes sense. I mean, in marketing, which, you know, we have a marketing agency and everything’s about analytics. Who’s responding to what message, how are they responding to it? How are we able to get a better result, blah, blah, blah. So when you’re looking at that, from that perspective, how is it that you take your PR because you’re a consultant too, correct?
[00:04:34] Shannel Winslow: [00:04:34] Yep.
[00:04:35] Mike: [00:04:35] How do you take that approach to an organization when you’re looking at designing or redesigning—Actually, at the point of your arrival redesigning a structure around that data, what are the things that you’re looking for? Do you guys use KPIs like we do? Or do you guys have different indicators? What do you guys do?
[00:04:53] Shannel Winslow: [00:04:53] Well, we do use KPIs, and a lot of them, but first we need to kind of start with what are you trying to solve for? Like, there have been so many times that people kind of jump into a situation, whether it’s from a greenfield approach or whether it’s farming. Yeah, we just need to make this better. So let’s dig into this and construct it better.
[00:05:14] Mike: [00:05:14] I love people like that. We just need to make this better. Okay.
[00:05:21] Shannel Winslow: [00:05:21] You know, and I’m a consultant. I also work at Fannie Mae and, yeah.
[00:05:26] Mike: [00:05:26] Boy do you have some insights, holy cow! You get to see some of the real workings of what’s going on with the economy at this point. I mean, if you’re doing that, that’s pretty powerful.
[00:05:42] Shannel Winslow: [00:05:42] It’s very critical. So a few years ago, what we did was decide to build out a design team of service designers, product designers, and really try to get to our customers—what they needed, you know, how can we develop products for them, not just what we think they should have.
[00:06:02] And it’s funny because being in that entire design world has taken me back to, you know, the Why? of it. So when you are providing, putting something in the center saying whether it’s a customer, you know, whether it’s the whatever stakeholder or yourself and your design around that, I mean, it’s, it’s amazing. It’s amazing. And we merge that with beta.
[00:06:28] Mike: [00:06:28] Sure. It creates a lot better than you’re talking about product design. When you’re talking about product design, what kinds of products as an example, are you talking about?
[00:06:37] Shannel Winslow: [00:06:37] Like, so we can use external products, but from my standpoint, the design team is my customer, right? So I’m doing everything from a standpoint of building out trainings, learnings, or guides to help them with their trainings and learnings. I’m building out a way of us being able to look at a selection system and be comprehensive, so we bring all the data around the hiring managers and what they think about people to make a data driven decision to eliminate some of those biases
[00:07:07] I’m talking about, using data to identify, you know, what is that critical talent? You know, what does that role look like? Not necessarily the person, but what are the roles that we’re going to need for our future state and what are some of those skills that we’re going to need? And how can we use those skills to develop the book helped develop the folks that are on the team to get there so that we’re not, you know, looking at things.
[00:07:28] Hindsight is 2020. You can say, “Oh gosh. Go out here, buy, buy, buy, buy, buy, because we don’t have the skills in house.” Right? And I do that with Fannie, but then I also do that with other organizations, as well, to be able to get them to a place where they’re able to say, okay, we feel comfortable looking at two, three years from now that we have a plan in place to be able to develop our talent and get them there so that we’re not thinking reactively.
[00:07:54] Mike: [00:07:54] So you’re doing proactive pre-planning, pre-programming, while fixing what may already be in the works, if it needs fixing. If you’re we’re looking at it and this is, I’m assuming a lot of this is around the HR portion.
[00:08:13] Shannel Winslow: [00:08:13] Absolutely.
[00:08:14] Mike: [00:08:14] Okay. So when you’re looking at data, From the standpoint of a hiring manager, looking for new skills, there then comes the personality portion of it. How do you fit that in when you have personality types that are socially awkward personality types, that can be the type A’s? That you know, are performers? They can be performers, but they can be absolute type A’s. How do you fit that into, you know, the organization’s design when nothing’s a hundred percent, let’s be honest. But, how do you, how do you design using that data? I mean, it talks about telling a story. We do that all the time, you know.
[00:09:06] The market is doing this at present. You know, one of the biggest things that I see in a lot of marketing departments is that if it’s not somebody’s specific idea, it never gets used. Well, that’s a block and that could become a problem because true expert marketers are not expert marketers, by the way. There’s no such thing as that. They’re expert testers and they’re experienced marketers.
[00:09:28] But when you have somebody in an organization that may be that block, how do you plan for that in the future? How do you look at that? It’s kind of like a problem resolution thing in my head. Is that about right?
[00:09:42] Shannel Winslow: [00:09:42] Yeah, it is. It is actually. And the thing is, is that you gotta take it off. You gotta take it a step up because now what you’re understanding is it’s not even a hiring issue. It’s not even a skills issue. It’s a leadership and a hiring manager issue, right? And so you need to take a look at that leader because as you know, I mean, and as your listeners know a leader, people managers—
[00:10:02] Mike: [00:10:02] Completely different.
[00:10:03] Shannel Winslow: [00:10:03] Completely different, right? And so you have to tackle those two specific issues or types to be able to kind of deal with the fact that once you get down to hiring, you’re dealing with a person who takes a social offer. It’s not a good fit. Can’t do anything without even looking at their resume or their experience.
[00:10:25] Mike: [00:10:25] Yeah. You might’ve lost the one puzzle piece there. How do you, yeah, so please, I’m sorry.
[00:10:30] Shannel Winslow: [00:10:30] Yeah, no, you’re you’re, you’re fine. You’re absolutely right. I think you’re spot on. I think again, it’s developing that learners understand that diversity is required. It’s being in an organization where it’s like, you really do have to put your “ego” aside. And when I speak of ego, I’m speaking of, you know, having people in the room that looks like you, talk like you, think like you, you have to—
[00:10:56] Mike: [00:10:56] The term is called: echo chamber.
[00:11:03] Shannel Winslow: [00:11:03] Right! Because you have to feel comfortable with being uncomfortable. You know, having people and looking for people, that’s going to challenge thought. And if you don’t start there, then you’re gonna run into those issues where it’s gonna permeate throughout the entire system.
[00:11:23] Mike: [00:11:23] I would fear having a company full of HR thinking people.
[00:11:27] Shannel Winslow: [00:11:27] Yeah, me and you both.
[00:11:31] Mike: [00:11:31] Let me, let me, let me qualify that I want my HR department thinking the way they do, but when it comes to being someone who is a leader in that department, the rest of their HR department shouldn’t necessarily all think alike, their goals should be the same. But if they all think alike, you’re going to have a company that thinks like that. That’s not necessarily a good thing.
[00:12:00] Shannel Winslow: [00:12:00] Matter of fact, it’s a recipe for disaster. And I’m going to take it a step further. I don’t even want my HR people to all think alike. Right, because then we’re never in a state of continuous improvement and innovation and thinking outside the box. You know, I love that. I love my background. I love my experiences. I love, you know, how I got into HR and how I am sitting here in front of you. It’s because I’m not a traditional HR practitioner. I didn’t come from that background. I’m actually classically trained in project management, software development, you know, business analysis, all of that. And I would sit in the business angel. I would sit there and work with my stakeholders on these programs projects, or I would be a subject matter expert.
[00:12:49] Oh my gosh. I remember it at this job. I had this job, and I had promised my undergraduate accounting professor. I said, if you pass me, I promise you I would never get a job in accounting. Give me a strong C minus—just a strong C minus. And I lie to you not, one of my first jobs coming out of college was a reconciliation accountant.
[00:13:18] Mike: [00:13:18] I see what you did there.
[00:13:23] Shannel Winslow: [00:13:23] But with that, what that got me to realize, was the fact that I got a lesson to never minimize a person’s role, what they bring to the table, their skillset, and don’t be a leader that believes that you can just do it.
[00:13:41] Mike: [00:13:41] Oh my gosh, you are now talking to the entrepreneurs that have to wear a million hats. Let’s be clear on that one because, and I’ve done it myself. In fact, only as of late, we recently incorporated this year. I have two partners now, both of which can do stuff that I couldn’t even begin thinking of doing. One is an expert in search engine optimization. The other one’s an expert in automation and programming new systems and tools. And we got an assistant to him and we got six interns and all of them with different perspectives. And I look at that and I’m like, yeah, there’s no way in hell I could have done this by myself. Well, I tried for five years and I looked at it. I was like, I got by. I did. But there’s no way to scale at the point. There’s no way to grow anything beyond that.
[00:14:33] Shannel Winslow: [00:14:33] That part. And whether you’re an entrepreneur or the term they’re slinging around of being an intrepreneur and doing that work within an organization.
[00:14:41] Mike: [00:14:41] Who came up with that by the way? I mean I get it, but it’s like…yeah.
[00:14:46] Shannel Winslow: [00:14:46] Everything needs a term these days.
[00:14:48] Mike: [00:14:48] Are we romanticizing things now? Absolutely. It’s the Renaissance of entrepreneurship. I’m telling you something. They were doing this [strokes beard], like I do. For those of you that can’t see it, I’m just stroking my beard thoughtfully.
[00:15:06] Shannel Winslow: [00:15:06] Well, yeah, when you’re building an organization, there ain’t no way in the world, you’re going to be able to do everything and be all things to everyone for a sustainable amount of time. You’ll get by, but you will, you overwork yourself.
[00:15:19] Mike: [00:15:19] Yeah. Well, and even with all of the automated systems that are available to you now, there’s still a limit because it’s just your brain.
[00:15:28] Shannel Winslow: [00:15:28] That’s right.
[00:15:29] Mike: [00:15:29] If you don’t allow for other viewpoints and this, you know, this is why they say, get coaches, get consultants, et cetera, et cetera. You have to have other people looking from outside of the storm to see what you’re up to so you, yourself, can improve. So like, I’ve heard that even HR people have HR coaches, which is freaking awesome in my mind. I was like, I’d never thought of that before. And yet here’s like yourself, like Dave, you guys come in from the outside and you go, “Oh, well, here’s what we see.” And all of a sudden they just, their jaws drop and they go, I never thought of that.
[00:16:03] Shannel Winslow: [00:16:03] Because you’re in it, so it’s difficult to take a step back and go, “Wait a minute, how do we do this a little differently when you’re in it day in and day out?” And that’s the critical importance of it, right?
[00:16:14] Mike: [00:16:14] Especially in an organization as large as Fannie Mae. I mean, I’m in Vegas and gaming companies here, their HR departments are insanely large just because of the amount of people that they have to service. I mean, I think Stations, they employ thousands of people, thousands, and they’re on multiple properties. Well, right now there are not as many thousands as before because obviously with everything going on, but still. Their HR departments, like just Green Valley Ranch, I know they got like six people in there to manage 2000.
[00:16:47] Shannel Winslow: [00:16:47] And so, that’s the struggle, right? It’s hiring the talent that you hire based on the value of their seed and the value that you bring, right?
[00:17:06] Mike: [00:17:06] There’s always that, you know. Hmm. Are we sure with that one?
[00:17:10] Shannel Winslow: [00:17:10] Well, I’ll be honest with you. Like, you know, it’s crazy because HR has been in a shift for some time now. It’s been a very long time. I’m not saying benefits payroll. You know, traditional HR is not important because it’s critical. We have to also take into consideration that, you know, we can no longer be HR professionals five degrees separated from the business needs.
[00:17:34] Mike: [00:17:34] Which is how it is. That’s traditional.
[00:17:36] Shannel Winslow: [00:17:36] That’s traditional. You know, from the outside, I’m looking at it, especially if we’re like, we need to align our, you know, people with business strategy, right? Your talent strategy with business strategy. Right? You can’t, you can’t do that at the same time, unless you’re sitting at the table.
[00:17:58] And that’s one of the things that I’ve had the pleasure to do was be in the business doing all of these functions, not the benefits, not the payroll, but really sitting down and understanding the culture, measuring the culture, understanding the engagement, talking to the people, sitting there and problem solving with leaders, to be able to say in the moment versus the big bang changes what we’re trying to do, you know, how can we make these incremental changes? To really move the needle on engagement.
[00:18:28] How do we make these incremental changes? Whether that’s all the design, you know, whether that’s the fluffy stuff, the cultural activities, or, you know, whether it’s making sure leaders have the information they need from a talent perspective in their hands to make those decisions at that time.
[00:18:47] Mike: [00:18:47] When you’re looking at those incremental pieces—cause I’m, I’m a big believer that it’s always the little stuff that eventually builds up to the builds out to the big stuff. When you’re talking about growth, when you’re talking about scale, it changes in the business mind. That’s a different story.
[00:19:02] But when you’re looking at creating those little incremental changes, even including the cultural aspects of things, what are you looking at? I mean, what just a little technical, not too much, but what KPIs are you looking at to make those decisions? What is it that is going to help you as a consultant?
[00:19:26]Shannel Winslow: [00:19:26] So I’m tapping into my project management, right? So let’s make sure that we have the right strategy in place. Let’s make sure that we have those goals that ladder up to that strategy. Let’s make sure that people understand it. Because I’ve walked into organizations and I’m like, so what are the goals? And they say, I don’t know.
[00:19:47] Mike: [00:19:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s actually probably a lot more common than most people think it is. And you have that big degree of separation between C level, even between C level and senior level. Yeah, there’s that. “Oh, everything’s okay.” Actually, no, it’s not. And the guys down here are like, well, we have no idea what the hell is going on.
[00:20:09] Shannel Winslow: [00:20:09] We’re just here. Yeah. That’s the problem. But then going back to your original question of what KPIs we’re looking at. I’m like, “What are the services that you saw? Why are you here? What is your function?” Because your KPIs are going to be very different if you’re servicing someone versus actually, you know, bringing information in or bringing product in or increasing, customer base. So for the organizations that I work with, it’s a lot of shared services.
[00:20:37] So one of my biggest things is time to value, right? Like how long is it taking to get something that our stakeholders can use. You know, what are some of those challenges that we’re facing, you know, and you build that back and you’re like, okay, so how much time, or how much capacity we have a lot at to the high impact areas.
[00:21:01] We know what our high impact areas are. Do you? Most likely no. Because people don’t really understand or engage the concept of prioritization because of strolling around and they’re like this—
[00:21:12] Mike: [00:21:12] This is all they’re doing. They’re grinding.
[00:21:14]Shannel Winslow: [00:21:14] Exactly. Exactly. Because you have a lot of…infighting is such a strong word. I don’t want to use that word.
[00:21:24] Mike: [00:21:24] However, it does happen. It happens all the time. Nobody likes to call it infighting, but let’s look at it for what it is. Everybody’s waiting for a higher position. I was psychologically unemployable when I was in my thirties because of what I found out from my friends, people were threatened by my intelligence. I’m just a local kid from the islands. I have no idea how anybody could be threatened, but I’ve lost positions because of that. And I thought about it and I was like, you know, people should stop worrying about that kind of stuff. If I move up, you better be moving up too. In other words, I’m trying to make you look good. I’m trying to make you get to your next level.
[00:22:08] Shannel Winslow: [00:22:08] Keep talking. I think you and I are siblings. We’re on the same page.
[00:22:15] Mike: [00:22:15] It’s too often that people—You spoke about it earlier when ego gets in the way. Things go sideways easily because people who no longer care about what are these objectives, what are their goals,what are the things that will matter for the organization? They’re just thinking about self-preservation. And again, this is going to sound like a blanket statement. It’s not. People call themselves unicorns. Sorry. We’re not all unicorns. There’s a whole bunch of us who think this way.
[00:22:43] It’s just every once in a while people get, I guess, fearful of what may happen there. It’s an unfounded fear. I mean, honestly, if you’re in a position of leadership, you’re supposed to be out, charging from the gate. I have some friends that are wonderful CEOs. And they have no problem getting their hands dirty. They just have to make sure that they don’t get caught up in the midst of getting their hands dirty. And it does happen, so that they don’t forget that they’re supposed to be out leading, not just charging. But I think if we were to look at it a little more often—
[00:23:29] And that’s a hard one to catch, too. Cause you don’t see it until it actually shows itself. Because I remember the two times that had happened to me, I had no clue and neither did HR. I had one case, it was HR that was trying to get me out. And I was like, “What did I do? Well, what didn’t I do? Can somebody help me out here?” And that helped, never came.
[00:23:51] Shannel Winslow: [00:23:51] But then there’s also other problems, right? That we choose not to see, or we kind of brush off or, you know—
[00:23:59] Mike: [00:23:59] I bet there were flags. I bet there were flags.
[00:24:01] Shannel Winslow: [00:24:01] No, definitely. And, we’re like, and this is me. I’m a 100%, what can I do to improve myself? Let me take this feedback. Because everyone says feedback is a gift. I could keep the feedback. I don’t like that feedback. Well, I’ll chew the feedback, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll swallow it. Right? Cause I’m chewing it and I’m like, that’s your issue?
[00:24:29] I have had to do it, but some of my best—In fact, that has shifted the course of my career because of people that were intimidated. And again, not from this little, but true honest, trying to get me out. And I’m like, what did I do? Because it forced me to see within myself.
[00:24:56] But back to your point, it’s all about fear. And that’s the struggle that I come into. when I’m dealing with something like coaching and development. I have therapists that are— Oh my goodness. Because you start seeing things from people’s paths, right? You start seeing issues that are unresolved, that manifest and, and roll into the corporate environment. And I’m not trained in that. But my job in this space is to develop a way of having the open conversations to ask those questions.
[00:25:34] And then I lean in a little bit differently, to be honest with you. I say, “All right, I’m going to this. This is what I’m seeing.” I had one client and she was like, I was asking questions to ask. She was like, “Shannel, can you just tell me?!”
[00:26:11] Mike: [00:26:11] It’s interesting. Years ago, when Zappos used to be out here in Green Valley and I did the tour of their customer service building. They actually had an office specifically for a life coach in their office.
[00:26:23] And I thought about that and I was like, that’s pretty damn ingenious if you think about it because if somebody is going through something, are they really going to be that effective as a customer service agent? Probably not. But if you give them somebody to talk to and to get them to start looking forward to coming to work—
[00:26:41] And they still got a very high satisfaction rating, it’s Zappos. I don’t know if they still have that position because they’re always innovating and changing and stuff, but yeah. That was pretty damn genius.
[00:26:54] Shannel Winslow: [00:26:54] It’s brilliant. You know, coaching is not just for leadership.
[00:26:57] Mike: [00:26:57] No, no. It’s for everyone.
[00:27:00] Shannel Winslow: [00:27:00] It’s for everyone. And, you know, it’s crazy to me, that—
[00:27:05] Mike: [00:27:05] Therapists, as well. Let’s be clear. There’s both types because yeah. You gotta have them both.
[00:27:10] Shannel Winslow: [00:27:10] Yes, exactly. And so, I know that from a standpoint of organizations that I’ve worked with, they’ve talked about bringing in the coaching model of management, you know, bringing in that coaching and feedback and and I’m like, you’re gonna fail because it’s a different skillset.
[00:27:31] Mike: [00:27:31] And it’s a different purpose. You can’t, I mean, you can’t just throw a coach in the middle of everything and go out. That’s not how it works. Don’t get me wrong. It can get super elaborate, but it’s essentially still throwing a coach in the middle of everything.
[00:27:46] Shannel Winslow: [00:27:46] You’re still doing that. And you’re like, okay, unless you have the right people in place, let’s take a huge step back. Let’s make sure the person that’s managing people actually wants to do that.
[00:27:57] Mike: [00:27:57] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:27:59] Shannel Winslow: [00:27:59] Okay, because we have a lot of people out there that have the career trajectory and they do not want to manage people. But, that’s the only thing available to them. So you count on complex coaching but people’s feelings. You know, that that can be more harm than good.
[00:28:19] Mike: [00:28:19] Interestingly enough, the more I think, and this is just apersonal opinion. I think the biggest one that shows up is anybody in sales. Moving into sales management. If you’ve got a super producer that moves into a managerial position, I’ll say 7 times out of 10, that’s not a good move. They’re just better at making money. And that’s okay. If that’s what they’re good at, then that’s what they should do. Don’t force them up the ladder.
[00:28:44] Shannel Winslow: [00:28:44] And allow that track versus trying to have just one. Allow that track, so people can still feel as though they are moving up in your organization. Because people don’t want to stay steady, you know, unless it’s part of their core or part of their, you know, goals in life.
[00:29:01] You know, I had one person and they used to work for me and I would say, all right, because I always managed my motivation back. I’m trying to get as individualized as I possibly can to be able to, you know, make them happy as well as, get a certain product.
[00:29:17] So I talked to her and I was like, what do you want to do? Come on, come on. Let’s see, let’s talk, let’s talk. And she’s like, at the end of the day, Shannel, I’m sunsetting my career. Oh, that’s cute. Don’t play with my money. It just didn’t work. I don’t need the promotion. I don’t need this. I don’t need that. I was like, okay. So I was able to manage her individualized specifications and what she was looking to accomplish in her career.
[00:29:44] And so we still need to have that level going back to the sales example, we still need to have that level, but not forcing people to say, all right, you either stay where you are or you need to manage a bunch of people and also produce.
[00:29:59] Mike: [00:29:59] Yeah. Yeah. And, a lot of times what happens in the sales side, in the sales cycle and even the marketing cycle, in some cases where you have people that are like, “Well, you’re very creative. You’re very good at creating this. We need you to move over into content creation.” I was like, I don’t know anything about content creation. I really don’t want to manage that.
[00:30:20] It’s like, “Oh, it’ll be a great learning experience. It’s great for you to expand your horizons.” But, I don’t know. It’s like, yea, right. Not only that, but it’s like, is that really the best move? You’re moving somebody out of—Mind you, getting out of your comfort zones, not a bad thing, but what uncomfort zone are you putting this person into and is it really going to cause them to grow? Or do you have any other options? We’ll have to think about that.
[00:30:47] Hey, we’re going to take a quick pause. And when we come back, we’ll talk a little bit more about the motivational factors and the fun stuff that this is all going through. Just a little moment for our sponsors.
[00:30:58] I have a guest coming soon who’s got this, got me on this new, I usually drink coffee in the mornings. I decided to try this new supplement and he’s going to be on the podcast later, so I’m still getting used to it. Normally, coffee just has me speaking normally. And today I’m just kinda like, I’m wired for some reason, but anyway, we’ll take a short pause. We’ll pause for the cause as they call it, we’ll be back right after this.
[00:31:26] And we’re back here at Java Chat with Shannel Winslow, who is an IO—Oh, I’m going to blow it. I already know it. And I didn’t mean to rhyme that, but I absolutely know it. IO informed coach and development project manager? See, I told you I would.
[00:31:48] Shannel Winslow: [00:31:48] I am an IO psychology practitioner. Yeah, I don’t think I actually said that earlier.
[00:31:56] Mike: [00:31:56] Now you did, and I still feel dumb. Anyway, you mentioned something a little earlier about motivational factors, and I think a lot of people may misunderstand sometimes what those can be.
[00:32:15] So I’m going to go basic and start with your motivational factors. What gets you up in the morning? What do you start with? Because, and the reason I’m doing this is because I want people to understand, I don’t care where you are in life. I don’t care what you’re doing in life. At the beginning of the day, I think everybody has the same intent to get their butts up and do something worthwhile. So what’s your motivational factor in the morning?
[00:32:42] Shannel Winslow: [00:32:42] You know, something that contributes to my legacy, my legacy for my kids. I have three kids. I say I have three kids, and then I have like, what I call a bonus baby who’s just, I love him to death, he’s my friend’s best friend.
[00:33:02] Mike: [00:33:02] Hawaiians do that all the time. Trust me, it’s all family.
[00:33:05] Shannel Winslow: [00:33:05] Right? And so I think coming from a lineage of strong women, you know, in their own respect, it made me want to, of course always be better, do better and provide more, for my children and my legacy. It’s not necessarily self-serving, but I think there’s a place for ego.
[00:33:24] It’s more so, what can I do today to make my children proud of me? What can I do to, you know, have my name be associated with good and contributing value to society? That’s what gets me going.
[00:33:47] Mike: [00:33:47] It’s interesting. You mentioned, pride in self and that ego has a place. I think there’s a difference between just using two different articles—pride in self versus pride of self. Yeah. Where one is taking pride in what you’ve accomplished and being able to utilize that for good versus being proud of accomplishments where you’re showing it off. I think that’s a difference. That’s just a personal opinion.
[00:34:22] Shannel Winslow: [00:34:22] It is, it is. And you can get so wrapped up in the latter.
[00:34:26] Mike: [00:34:26] Yeah. Very easy to do. It’s a punch-drunk situation if you ask me. It’s a punch-drunk situation. “Look what I did.”
[00:34:35] Shannel Winslow: [00:34:35] Yeah. And you’re like, “You’re great. That’s awesome. Wonderful.”
[00:34:41] Mike: [00:34:41] “Here’s your recognition. What’s next? “
[00:34:44] Shannel Winslow: [00:34:44] But I will say it’s a struggle a little bit because of the fact that, you know, being a woman and being in organizations, you gotta promote yourself, right?
[00:34:57] Mike: [00:34:57] You do. But again, that’s not pride of self.That’s just, that’s just basically you’re proving what you’ve done. You’re still pride in self because you, yourself, know, “I did this for the better.”
[00:35:11] Shannel Winslow: [00:35:11] Correct, but just to, plus one your point, it’s a very slippery slope.
[00:35:19] Mike: [00:35:19] It can be; that’s true. It can be very easily a punch-drunk deal. I mean, when we are talking to people who could become potential clients, it becomes a pretty familiar story over and over, you know. “Well, what have you guys done?”
[00:35:33] And it’s a proving ground. When it becomes a proving ground [to say] that it was me that did it, that’s a slippery slope. I helped them do this. I designed this. I did that. And it’s like, “Well, I kind of just used the template actually. All I did was tweak it a little bit. Did I really do that much?” So there’s a tendency to lean more towards. “Well, what we did and this is what our clients experienced?”
[00:35:57] And let me share their story with you. Well, now it’s no longer about pride of self it’s pride of “that’s what they got out of it.” And I think if more people took that in mind, even during their own self-promotion, which has to happen like you said, if you don’t, nobody’s gonna know what you can do. But if I think if more people took that posture, it’d be easier for people to drop their wall.
[00:36:19] Shannel Winslow: [00:36:19] Yeah. Right.
[00:36:20] Mike: [00:36:20] No matter if you’re in sales or a consulting coach, it doesn’t matter what, but it’s just the human element of wanting to connect. Does that make sense?
[00:36:32] Shannel Winslow: [00:36:32] Oh no, no, no, definitely, definitely. You say something. I’m going to come over and say, “Hey, just to connect with you, I did X, Y and Z. We did the same thing.” It’s a part of being human. I wish I really wish more people would get that.
[00:36:49]Mike: [00:36:49] Yeah. So when you’re looking at motivational factors moving from your day into another person’s day, what do you see? And what is it that you see are the challenges that they’re facing when it becomes, what are your motivations? What’s your, why? Why is this going down?
[00:37:06] Shannel Winslow: [00:37:06] That’s a great question and I can—Off the top of my head, the one thing I see is being able to translate my personal motivation into work.
[00:37:16] So it’s these challenges of, you know, yes, I want to get up and I want to do things that’s going to strengthen my legacy for my kids and family. And, but what does that look like when I get to work? You know, is that in the form of, I want to be promoted? Or is that a form of doing interesting work?
[00:37:38] Or is it job security so that I can continuously get this paycheck that allows me to invest in other modalities? So it’s like the translation is tricky. And that’s the part that I see a lot of struggle, when it comes to, you know, how do I do this for the right things?
[00:38:01] How do I stand by my values? How do I not lose myself in this rat race to translate my personal motivations into what I need to accomplish personally? And how that’s going to motivate me, if that makes any sense?
[00:38:18] Mike: [00:38:18] Makes absolute sense. And one of the things that I keep wondering is how do we get corporations to get their own employees out of the mentality of this is a rat race because at the end of that race, you’re still a rat, right?
[00:38:30] And if that’s what your employees are thinking, then you’re your initial Why? up on top might need to shift a little bit. One of the things that I did with our interns, because we’re rebranding Oasis, is I said we’re going to create a new mission statement. And I walked them through the whole thing, took us three weeks, which by any stretch is absolutely fast.
[00:38:57] I know guys that take a year because you have to, you know, the culture and everything around it, et cetera, et cetera. When we got to the back end of it. I said, “So we’re good with this? They went, “Yeah. Yeah. We’re good. We’re good.” Then I said, “Okay. I want your honest opinion. Does this exactly reflect what you guys feel we are as far as the partners are concerned?” Because the LLC has three managing members and the one that that I’ve now learned to count on coming out the most honest, she’s our social media manager, she came out and she said, “I don’t know. You guys are just fun.”
[00:39:36] And I said, “And does this mission statement reflect that?” And she goes, “Hmm, not really.” Thank you for your honest input. I appreciate it, but at the same time, according to the goals and the objectives that we’re going to be accomplishing for the company, we’re more of an AI tech company for marketing. So as much as we may be internally fun, we’re going to have to, obviously there’s going to have to be rewritten sometime down the line, but that culture hasn’t established itself.
[00:40:02] I mean, again, we just incorporated this year, so there’s nothing really, there’s nothing really wildly creative yet. But at the same time, it’s like, well, you guys understand how we are and you understand how we want to be. Does it fit what you are expecting with regards to what your goals are in your little world?
[00:40:24] Shannel Winslow: [00:40:24] And I think that’s put back onto the individual. I think that we’re really shifting and we’ve been shifting for some time into this culture of, as a company, what can you do for me? Right? I have what I believe in that I know who I want to work for, and I know where I want to live my time.
[00:40:44] It’s almost like empowerment of the candidate that’s coming back and saying, “You know what you have; that’s your mission. Those are your values. That’s great. Doesn’t align to, you know, where I’m trying to go with my life. So thank you. But no, thank you.” And as a current employee, you can do that as well.
[00:41:00] You know, you can, you know, stand up and say, “Hey, listen, let’s think about this a little bit, you know?” And you don’t have to have a degree in marketing. You don’t have to have—
[00:41:09] Mike: [00:41:09] No, you just need to have a solid idea of who you are. I think that’s good. Just comes back to knowing you. What’s that old phrase?
[00:41:16]Shannel Winslow: [00:41:16] Know thyself. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it takes a lot of work.
[00:41:26]Mike: [00:41:26] I was going to say, I hope you realize just how much of an understatement that is.
[00:41:30] Shannel Winslow: [00:41:30] It’s hard work, you know? You talked about it earlier. You bring in your coaches, you bring in your therapists, right? And I’m, I’m not afraid to say I have both. You know, and you bring it in and you worked through that.
[00:41:42] And through that, you’re able to really get away from the junk in the gunk. That’s mucking up something that should be very simple: what do you want, what do you want to do, who do you want to be? You know, like who but what are your values? What do you want to kind of ground yourself in and does your life align?
[00:42:00] Mike: [00:42:00] Yeah. Yep. It really comes down to if you understand who you are and what your values are. Interestingly enough, the positions or the opportunities that you most align with, your mind will already be looking for? It was an old one of my professors years ago who said, you know, your brain is ever active. You just need to give it something to do. And then he looks up and he goes, “So on your way home…Mercedes-Benz.” And everybody looked at him with, “Well, we recognize the car name. Why did you say that?” He goes, “Count how many you see on the way home.”
[00:42:40] Everybody came back the next night, ranting and raving. And he goes, “How many Honda’s did you see?” And everybody went, “I don’t remember seeing any.” He goes, “because your mind was looking for what it was told to look for. So what are you telling your head to look for?” I’m glad to hear that that shift is happening because in my days there was no Mercedes-Benz. There was a computer or there’s your work. Go do it ,enjoy. Have fun sinking or swimming. You know, these are the 70s and 80s, of course.
[00:43:18] Shannel Winslow: [00:43:18] Yeah. But there is a huge shift in another direction of companies understanding that. Your talent is just not dollars. You know, your talent is really what’s going to make or break you. You know, they’re the interface. There was a huge shift at one point in time to kind of look at the customer experience.
[00:43:36]Mike: [00:43:36] Everybody’s like, “The customer’s always right.” And that is the biggest false that came out of a one person talking about his situation and they took a sound bite. It’s not always correct.
[00:43:51]Shannel Winslow: [00:43:51] No, it’s not. And then on the flip side, someone along the way said, wait a minute, I’m the employee. Why don’t I matter? Y’all been doing everything possible, but as a company to satisfy your customers; however, I’m burnt out. I am not paid. There’s no promotional opportunities. You know, I hate my manager. Yeah. So, what are you doing?
[00:44:16] Mike: [00:44:16] Manager hates me and has a thing out for me.
[00:44:20]Shannel Winslow: [00:44:20] You know, it’s that shift that’s taking place—And to go back and kind of to the motivational factors, you’re absolutely right. The times are really changing.
[00:44:27] So when I used to conduct motivational, motivational factors with my people, my direct reports, I used to be on the court because another thing again, this is even before I did IO. This was one of those things I was like, “Okay. From a people perspective, people change.” Situations they’re constantly changing, as you said, you’re always taking data in.
[00:44:49] One time, I did the motivational factor of one quarter, and the biggest thing was job security, you know, because these things were happening and people were worried about their jobs. And, if I went off of just that as the common theme amongst my people around motivational factors, then I would have been thrown a little bit of basic data all day, right?
[00:45:11] Mike: [00:45:11] Yup. Yup.
[00:45:12] Shannel Winslow: [00:45:12] Quarterly, you start truly seeing what people care about. It’s a quick stack rank. It’s like 10 motivational factors and they’re very basic, you know. Either it’s interesting work, promotion, money, interesting work, job security, or knowing your surroundings.
[00:45:32] Mike: [00:45:32] I’ll want those 10 so I can put them up on the comments so people have something to look into. We’ll probably end up using it on our next survey as well because we just did one with the interns just to see how they’re doing.
[00:45:43] Shannel Winslow: [00:45:43] Absolutely. And it tells you so much about the people you work with, and they show that you care, you know.
[00:45:55]Mike: [00:45:55] It’ll show you how much they care.
[00:45:57] Shannel Winslow: [00:45:57] Absolutely. Absolutely. So, I will definitely make sure I send that over to you, but yeah, it’s definitely a tool that I had used that I was very beneficial in being managing people.
[00:46:10] Mike: [00:46:10] So here comes the fun one. What are the red flags that somebody in a corporate structure can see? When you’re looking at something, when you’re looking at it from your standpoint of what you’re trying to do as far as leadership and things of that? What are the red flags that are at least noticeable enough that they might need to make some changes?
[00:46:29] Yeah. I mean, I know there’s some that are huge fricking banners and then there’s the little ones. And I tend to think the little ones are the ones that are most deadly because it starts a chain reaction.
[00:46:39] Shannel Winslow: [00:46:39] The huge ones. Of course, you know, it’s increased sick days and people call out. That’s a huge red flag.
[00:46:45] Mike: [00:46:45] I got two weeks, I’ll be back.
[00:46:51] Shannel Winslow: [00:46:51] They’re just not worth it. You know, a lot of companies look at productivity as one, but that’s not a red flag but something to manage whether or not there is a red flag. I would think about the pain that you’re constantly seeing.
[00:47:05] You don’t know what you don’t know. And, if you’re not conducting some sort of research, not a survey since there’s a lot of survey fatigue, but if you’re not doing some sort of way of collecting data from your people, you’re not going to even be able to kind of notice those small red flags. But sometimes, this is the crazy part, maybe you have a department that has nothing but great scores. It seems like nothing’s wrong.
[00:47:41] Mike: [00:47:41] That’s my first red flag. That’s a big red flag to me. It’s always something they do.
[00:47:46]Shannel Winslow: [00:47:46] “It’s great. My managers are there. You know, they, they satisfy me. It’s always great.” That’s a red flag for me to kind of do a little bit of a deeper dive in saying? Are we dealing with intimidation? Are we dealing with retaliation? How are the managers actually leveraging data? No matter how you look at it’s just data.
[00:48:10] It’s what you choose. What story do you choose to tell with that data? You know, what questions you’re choosing to answer and how you’re approaching managing “the data” is critical. So, I do believe that all leaders have flaws within their organization.
[00:48:31] That people who feel as though they have a level of psychological safety can speak about. You know, but if you have organizations where people are silently or passive aggressively or there’s a disconnect of, you know, your annual survey and a lot of properties want it quarterly. But then you have like these like mini pulse surveys and there’s a disconnect between the mini pulse that takes place in the department and your annual. You’re like, “Wait, something’s wrong.”
[00:49:05] Mike: [00:49:05] Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. I can see that too. This is when you have these minis where all of a sudden somebody lets something slip, especially if you give them the term “These are not shared with your managers.”
[00:49:19] You’ll see a disconnect if there is one for sure. And even then, so if that organization has been running right, that manager will have no problem with those minis. And they’ll be just like, “Hey, just be honest on it because there may be some feedback for me. I’m trying to make sure that this is good for you.”
[00:49:36] Shannel Winslow: [00:49:36] Absolutely, absolutely. 100%. And I feel like if you don’t ask that, you know, you can go out. It was just so funny. I was talking to one of my colleagues about this thing. You have your organization that never asks and then you have that organization that will always ask for everything.
[00:49:56] Mike: [00:49:56] Where’s the happy middle on this? It just doesn’t seem to happen.
[00:50:00] Shannel Winslow: [00:50:00] Because then you have the ones that scream a lot being like, “You didn’t ask me about the pink color of the building!”
[00:50:08] Mike: [00:50:08] “Well, you said fuchsia. You didn’t say anything, so we went fuchsia. It’s a spiritual color. It’s spiritual.”
[00:50:17] Shannel Winslow: [00:50:17] Yes. So you have those companies that are trying to balance, and I’m gonna be honest. There’s a secret to it. No one can get it right. There’s no company I’ve ever had that was like, “We got the perfect way of, you know, conducting research methods and getting all of our 10,000 employees on board.”
[00:50:38] Mike: [00:50:38] That all makes sense, though. Hold on, I need to check something here. Holy cow. We’re already there. I’m having too much fun.
[00:51:09] We’re going to take one more short break. We’re going to wrap this up. And the last thing we’ll get into is how poor leadership can actually impact corporate culture. So we’ll just take a short break guys. We’ll be right back 30 seconds and we’ll come back with Shannel Winslow.
[00:51:24] And we’re back.
[00:51:25] I’m a bit frustrated because we’re already at the 1 hour mark, and I have so many more questions. We’ve been talking about leadership and corporate culture and how to be able to keep things in mind and keep things in flow. When you have somebody that has poor leadership, how does that impact the corporate culture? What are some of the red flags you can see there? Other than the obvious. We already know about the job dissatisfaction, that kind of stuff, but what are some of the other things that are not so obvious that would note that?
[00:52:00] Shannel Winslow: [00:52:00] Great question. I would say that you have the folks that will stay, you know,will say everything’s great and be afraid to speak up. You have the folks that are clamoring for a way of receiving feedback. But then when you give them feedback, they don’t know how to receive it and they’re not used to it. You know, you have folks that, they’re silently looking for new jobs, but not within the organization.
[00:52:36] Mike: [00:52:36] And that still happens a lot. I’m not clear why people just still do that. I mean, if you’re that dissatisfied, why haven’t you said something? Unless you did and nothing happened. Obviously, there’s there’s that too.
[00:52:49] Shannel Winslow: [00:52:49] Yeah. That’s a great question. You know, people speak up, and when nothing happens, there’s no action taken and they feel as though the person that is at the top is almost too big to fail, they look for other opportunities.
[00:53:04] Because you know, of course, you know, people don’t leave. You know, companies, they leave managers. And if I look for a role inside of your organization, there’s maybe a situation of retaliation, or if we’re not having these conversations as managers with our people about what their true career development is and what they want to do and managers can’t come to grips with the fact that this person is not going to be with me for 10 years, how do I get them from point a to point B into their next step?
[00:53:37] So, you know, employees feel like either I leave the company or I stay here because if I don’t get this job over here in this department, there may be retaliation. It’s going to make my life worse.
[00:53:56] Mike: [00:53:56] I can tell you that happens a lot in hospitality from personal experience, both as a frontline and as a manager. And it’s unfortunate because honestly, that organization is all about taking care of people. But it overly focuses on the guests experience and the inside, the cliques and everything, they still exist.
[00:54:23] I was with one recently where it was quite clear people in the department don’t leave. They’ve been there for a long time and the new guys, if you don’t fit into that clique, you don’t stay long. But other departments have turnover like you couldn’t believe. I mean, it’s just in and out, in and out, in and out. It’s like a revolving door.
[00:54:53] You tend to wonder. The leadership in senior and Clevel, which is the corporation side, they’re aware of that but to my knowledge have still not addressed it, not in the manner that we’ve been talking about.
[00:55:13] Shannel Winslow: [00:55:13] Yeah. Yeah. Back to that, you know, it really does. And if this was a true value to the employee, you know, then something would have been done about it. And I feel as though from a people managers perspective, leadership perspective, however you want to look at it—when you combine fear with control, it’s a recipe for disaster.
[00:55:38]Mike: [00:55:38] Guys, again, I’m not making a blanket statement. That’s one place that I was. It’s one. And, it may not be corporate wide. I’m just saying that in my experience, having been with three different hospitality companies over my career, pretty rapid, pretty often.
[00:55:57] And, I’m glad to hear that things are shifting because two of those careers were quite a while ago. It’s nice to see that people are starting to come to terms with the fact that there has to be a different way of looking at things and changing the organization to fit better.
[00:56:17] I think for the most part as that shift occurs, those who cannot change, thankfully are close to retirement or will not change either way or cause it’s more of a choice. The ones that are not close to retirement seem to be an, and again, this is just from what I’ve heard, they seem to be just settling in, like I’m here for the rest of the hall. Let’s just finish the hall.
[00:56:50] And everybody else is kind of like, “Okay, how do we make this work?” I don’t know if that’s what you’re seeing too, but—
[00:56:57] Shannel Winslow: [00:56:57] Those settlers can be detractors real quick because they’re online. They’re on that line, you know? And, it’s a tilt. It’s a tilt. And, you know—
[00:57:09] Mike: [00:57:09] He can also be a tilt. He’ll do either tilt depending on where they’re at on that career line. They could be tilting anyway.
[00:57:16] Shannel Winslow: [00:57:16] And, so you gotta pay attention to those from an organizational perspective. You should be talking about organization change all day long.
[00:57:25] Mike: [00:57:25] It’s not hard to do. I’m sure you have more stories to share with us. Unfortunately, we are at that mark. So, I want to thank you for coming and hanging out and having a chat and sharing some of your insights and your stories and your expertise. It’s definitely something that I think anybody can learn from, whether you’re an entrepreneur or a business professional or intrepreneur.
[00:57:47] I think it applies period because we’re talking about the individual as it applies to the organization. And as a leader, if you are a leader, I think it would behoove you to take a second look at what is going on within your organization and be honest about it.
[00:58:07] I mean, if you already are cool, great. You’re on the path. You’re in a good place, but yeah, if you haven’t honestly taken a look, the red flags will present themselves. It never fails. It does with us. When we look at marketing departments, you know, why isn’t this turning out this revenue? Then, you talk to the person that’s running the ads and you realize that person believes they’re the absolute God in that whole place. It’s just like, okay, this is what I see.
[00:58:35] Shannel Winslow: [00:58:35] And then one last thing. I know we have to go. You know, as an individual contributor or leadership role, doesn’t matter. Just because you’re like “I learned this” just because you’re good at something, doesn’t mean you have to do it. So find the time to be passionate, you know? Because you can do it. I ooze passion, so I found it and did that pivot. And it was, it was hard, but it was so rewarding.
[00:59:02] Mike: [00:59:02] It’s amazing to see how fearful people are of change and yet when they get there—Have you seen that thing where Will Smith talks about jumping out and skydiving for the first time?
[00:59:12] Shannel Winslow: [00:59:12] Yes.
[00:59:13] Mike: [00:59:13] Classic example of what fear actually does to you. It paralyzes you from taking the one thing that could be the most free feeling in your world, in your life. It doesn’t serve you. Fear has never served anyone. Well, hold on, let me step back. Fear has never served anybody that was worried about what may come next, when it comes to a career or things of that nature.
[00:59:37] Fear may have served them from stepping off the edge of a cliff without a parachute. That’s a good use of fear. That’s great, but that’s not what happens when you’re talking about, “Am I going to make a career move?” If you’ve done the research and you’ve done the things that are necessary to really be honest with yourself, “Am I okay here?” or “Am I in need of moving?,” if you’re more worried about, “Am I going to find a position in the next place?,” you’re worried about the wrong thing. You have your worth. You have your gifts, you have your talent, you have your skill sets. Somebody needs them. It may not be in your town.
[01:00:10] Well, I don’t know if you guys have noticed, a lot of people working from home these days, especially after what we just went through. There’s a lot of people working. You can live freaking anywhere. There are guys that work here in the States that live in Thailand. You know, and they take calls all day long.
[01:00:30] Well, one of my friends only takes two calls a day, but yeah, he’s an anomaly.
[01:00:38] Shannel Winslow: [01:00:38] Organizations are also getting up to speed with that. That’s something we’ve been doing. You know, like you can work from what you have, the technology you can work. Now, the organization is starting to come around. They’re saying, “Whoa, productivity is not impacted? Whoa. People are able to actually be happy? Whoa. This works for us.”
[01:00:53] Mike: [01:00:53] Look at that. Our P and L just went up because we don’t have to pay six figures in rent anymore for a whole floor of cubicles. Yeah, things have finally started shifting in the right direction. Technology’s finally catching the rest of the corporate world up long.
[01:01:10] Again, much more stuff. We’ll have to have you back. I hope you don’t mind. We’ll figure out some time again. For one, I already said, thank you. I’ll say thank you once more and to all of you that are listening—Oh! If somebody wants to find you in case they could use your services, where can they find you?
[01:01:25] Shannel Winslow: [01:01:25] So, I have Shannel at www.WithinYourGraspConsulting.com. And, I have a LinkedIn at Shannel Winslow. Thank you. Thank you. Those are the two.
[01:01:35] Mike: [01:01:35] Okay. And then I’m assuming, is there a website for that too?
[01:01:38] Shannel Winslow: [01:01:38] Yup. www.WithinYourGraspConsulting.com.
[01:01:41] Mike: [01:01:41] Sweet. So we’ll make sure that that’s down in the comments below, everybody. And then as usual, you guys know, there’s a subscribe button there. There’s a bell button over there. Touch them both. If you haven’t subscribed, do it because the bell tells you when we put up a new one. Great stuff, just like this, and many more to come.
[01:01:55] You guys, I’ve got all kinds of experts from different realms of entrepreneurship inside, outside consultants like Shannel. And if you guys haven’t heard Dave Char’s, go watch and go listen to Dave.
[01:02:06] That was another great conversation. We always end the same. We love all of you. Thank you so much for being a subscriber. If you’re listening on any of the podcast platforms, make sure you download it or subscribe
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[01:02:24] Stay up, stay safe, stay healthy and live. From both of us to all of you, ciao for now.
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