Jacqueline Wales – Developing Fearless Leaders

Interview with Jacqueline Wales 11_18_2020

Intro: [00:00:00] Who wants, but the, who wants a pot of coffee?. I just make coffee. You want a cup of coffee? Sure, there you go. Who wants coffee? Anybody else want coffee? Who wants coffee?

[00:00:13] And now it’s time for the man with the caffeine, the new tropics for the brain. It’s coffee with Mike, hang in, hang tight, grab your cup and let’s get this thing started.

[00:00:28] Mike: Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Java chat. This is coffee with Mike and today we’re hanging out, let with Jacqueline Wales. She is a very interesting person because of what she works in and around. Uh, and this is one of my like subjects too, when it comes to understanding why we do things or why we don’t do things.

[00:00:49] And our revolves around fear. Let’s not get into all the acronyms and all the other crazy stuff that goes along with it. Cause I I’m telling you what she’s going to be talking about is going to go way beyond that, which is cool. I’m not sure how we’re going to do that in 1545 minutes, but we’re going to try. Thanks so much for joining us here on Java chat. We really appreciate having you. 

[00:01:14] Jacqueline Wales: [00:01:14] It’s great to be here, Mike. Thank you. Yeah. Let’s all get fearless. 

[00:01:19] Mike: [00:01:19] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So let’s start with you first. Let’s get a little background on, on where are you from? What you do? Do you know the normal stuff? Let’s go through a little bit of, of who’s Jacqueline Wales?

[00:01:31] Jacqueline Wales:  Well, let’s, it’s a long story, but I’ll try to make it short. 

[00:01:34] Mike: [00:01:34] Well, let, let’s not start at the birth. We can just, we can kind of fast forward a little bit. 

[00:01:39] Jacqueline Wales: [00:01:39] Um, I was born in Scotland. 

[00:01:42] Mike: [00:01:42] I just said not the birth, but we’ll, you said Scotland. So you already got major point.s That’s already good. 

[00:01:47] Jacqueline Wales: [00:01:47] I’m giving you the geographics. We’ve got Scotland, England, the USA, France, Amsterdam, um, back to the USA and Bali. That’s the journey. 

[00:02:00] Mike: [00:02:00] So are you in Bali now? Is that what you’re?

[00:02:01] Jacqueline Wales: [00:02:01] No, I’m actually in San Francisco, just outside San Francisco.

[00:02:05] Mike: [00:02:05] Oh, you’re up the road from me. I’m in Las Vegas. I’m about eight hours away, but… 

[00:02:09] Jacqueline Wales: [00:02:09] Yeah yeah. Yeah, a little hop and a jump from here. We were socializing.  

[00:02:13] Mike: [00:02:13] But you, you started in one of my favorite places. Bonnie Scotland. 

[00:02:18] Jacqueline Wales: [00:02:18] And where have you been in Bonnie Scotland? 

[00:02:21] Mike: [00:02:21] Do you know what? It’s a favorite place that I’ve never been. It is a bucket list place that I, I listen, I I’ve already, I’ve already scouted out Scotch tours because I want to go so bad. 

Jacqueline Wales: It’s a beautiful country. 

Mike: Um, I, I I’ve seen pictures. I have friends who have gone there. I had a couple of friends that live there and it’s like, dude, what are you waiting for? And I’m like, uh, I don’t know. I’m, I’m, I’m trying to get there as fast as I can. I just, I want to go. The people that I’ve seen. Wonderful people. 

[00:02:52] Jacqueline Wales: [00:02:52] They’re nice people, they’re warm people, welcoming people. 

[00:02:55] Mike: [00:02:55] This is all I’ve ever heard. I mean, and your comedians are insanely hilarious.

[00:03:01] Jacqueline Wales: [00:03:01] They are insane. Um, and you can understand them most of the time. 

[00:03:06] Mike: [00:03:06] Yes and no. For those that don’t understand the Scottish accent, it can be tough to understand, but boy, when you finally start getting it, Oh my gosh. Are they hilarious? 

[00:03:14] Jacqueline Wales: [00:03:14] It’s all up and down stuff, you know, it’s like singing a song with it. 

[00:03:23] Mike: [00:03:23] And that’s the best part is you can, but anyway, I digress. Back to Jacqueline. Um, so you’re now in the Bay area. Uh, you have, uh, you have a, you have a practice at present or is it, what do you do? 

[00:03:35] Jacqueline Wales: [00:03:35] Yes, I, I got into this whole fear work a long time ago. Um, probably about 15 years ago. And, uh, it was a result of having lived a very adventurous, risky life in many ways and overcoming a lot of the obstacles that happens in life in general. And I was recommended by a coach to write a book about fear because I understood it so intimately and what does to people. And everything that I teach, everything that I coach with, everything that I write is all based on having walked the talk, if you like. Um, so I came up with this idea after I got my coaching certification, that I would write a book on being fearless and it became The Fearless Factor and I gathered a bunch of stories from women and their experience of being fearless as well as my own personal narrative.

[00:04:29] And that was really, you know, it was my second book, in effect. The first book was the Fearless Factor. Uh, and then it became a driver for the whole direction of what I was doing, because I realized that years of conversation and years of dealing with my own bullshit, um, I had to really address this issue of how do you get to the other side of fear?

[00:04:51] What I understood ultimately was fear is imagination-based. We make shit up to settle the uncertainty that we might be feeling at any given time. Uh, so. As I got more and more involved in this writing about it, talking about it, speaking about it with audiences and so forth. I began to see a lot of patterns that were basically undercurrents for everybody’s reason for not stepping it up, for not living up to your potential, for not being a better version of you, blah, blah, blah.

[00:05:23] And I’m all about learn, grow, and achieve because if you’re not growing, you’re dying, that’s really bottom line on it. So, uh, you know, over the years and it became a whole. Entrepreneurial business if you like, with retreats, masterminds, you know, webinars coaching, so on and so forth. And we do a lot of behavioral work as well, because I do a lot of behavioral assessments where we get to scientifically look at what kind of behaviors are operating in an individual and how it’s, it’s either helping them get better or undermining them. 

[00:06:00] Mike: [00:06:00] So you’re, you’re, you, do you do any work in conjunction with the psychology, um, realm or is it?

[00:06:06] Jacqueline Wales: [00:06:06] Well, it’s all psychology. I’ll be honest with you, you know, I haven’t got a degree in psychology, but uh..

[00:06:10] Mike: [00:06:10] I’m sure you got, have had, have had a few conversations.

Jacqueline Wales: Years and years of – 

Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:06:17] Jacqueline Wales: [00:06:17] So, um, you know, a lot of what I talk about is really I’ve been there, done that, and that’s where I come out of that whole life experience. But it’s all psychology-based. We’re our worst enemies and I teach people how to be their own best friend. There you go. You know. 

[00:06:34] Mike: [00:06:34] I, yeah, you, you strike a very fun little point there. Um, and this, don’t mind me, when I start doing this, my mind starts racing. The lack of being your own friend disallows the conversations that would probably quell a lot of fears because you’re no longer listening to who wants to help you. You’re listening to the old guard. It’s trying to keep you from doing the uncomfortable. Does that sound familiar? 

[00:07:05] Jacqueline Wales: [00:07:05] Oh yeah, absolutely. I call it the yadda yadda radio. 

[00:07:09] Mike: [00:07:09] I’ve heard this before. 

[00:07:11] Jacqueline Wales: [00:07:11] We all have a yadda yadda radio playing in our heads and it’s usually somebody else’s voice. You know, you didn’t plant it there. It was planted there by previous experiences. I mean, my background is, you know, violence, alcoholism, drug addiction, you name it. I’ve got the whole package thrown at me when I was growing up. So, you know, we look at that and now so much of it is just fear-based. And, uh, you know, again, to that point of why fear? People are always asking me this. Why, why fear? Well, it’s, it’s, uh, the root of most dysfunctions. If you get a bully at work, for instance, they’re only a bully because they’re afraid.

[00:07:54] Uh, nine times out of 10. Yeah, yeah. Or people who need to control. Yeah. It’s fear-based. Uh, so you can, you can kind of get there in many different ways, but it all comes down to that. Um, to your point about being uncomfortable, I say to my clients get comfortable being uncomfortable because that’s the only way to change.

[00:08:15] Mike: [00:08:15] Yeah, sure. 

[00:08:17] Jacqueline Wales: [00:08:17] And people aren’t willing to go there. 

Mike: So when you’re looking at the fearless, I believe you called it the fearless factor. What is it that you’re really, what is you’re really doing when you’re, when you’re looking at that? What is, what is that fearless factor?

[00:08:34] Jacqueline Wales: [00:08:34] It’s about helping people develop the courage. To step beyond where they think they need to stop, because for many people it’s taking the next step, taking the next step demands courage. 

[00:08:50] Mike: Yeah. 

[00:08:51] Jacqueline Wales:  So I have an acronym for risk. For instance, I call it Respect your Intention and Show Courage. So if you look at what’s your intention, well, my intention is that I want to be able to achieve whatever that is. But I’m stopping myself because either I feel like I’m not competent, not capable, all these kinds of things that are going through your head, but the courage piece is where you go, I feel the fear and do it anyway, which is aligned from a book that was written many, many years ago. Uh, you know, she actually endorsed my first book, the Fearless Factor. That’s cool, which was really cool, sort of Marianne Williamson by the way. Nice. Which blew me away. Uh, you know, one day loping up and Lee mail and there’s Marianne going, “somehow I have your manuscript and I have no idea how I got it, but it’s really good.”

[00:09:43] Mike: [00:09:43] Isn’t that really cool though, when you have something unexpected like that, but isn’t it really cool when you have the respect of those, those kinds of people who you’ve always looked up to. Um, the gentleman that wrote the foreword for my book, uh, he’s a very well-known, um, sales trainer, uh, and he actually wrote the foreword for my business etiquette training. And I, I was like, you’re willing to do that. I mean, you’re like one of the guys I look up to and he’s like, absolutely no problem. And it, it just, I guess it invalidates the fear and validates the next step in courage, if that makes sense. 

[00:10:24] Jacqueline Wales: [00:10:24] Totally. I mean, you know, it’s, it’s it, especially for women, you know, we don’t always ask for what we want and we’ll go about it kind of sideways. You know.

[00:10:33] Mike: [00:10:33] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I’ve seen that.  

[00:10:36] Jacqueline Wales: [00:10:36] I’ll be really nice to you and then maybe you’ll give me what I want, instead of just going straight at it. And I found that when I did the Fearless Factor book, I was coming in with, with very little credibility, as far as I was concerned, because I had been a writer, I’d written a novel. I had been a musician. I know you’re a musician too. Um, professionally trained singer. I worked as a Cantor for five years in Europe with all the high holiday stuff. Um, I did martial arts. I raised my family. I traveled the globe. I did all kinds of stuff, but I’d never actually stepped into being an expert on anything. That was really how I was looking at it.

[00:11:11] Mike: [00:11:11] Right, I think, I think a lot of people, too, miss the point that expert doesn’t necessarily mean you have a piece of paper that says you went to school. I mean, a lot of, a lot of valid credibility comes out of exactly what you just laid out. If you’ve been there done that, bought the t-shirt, who’s going to tell you that your experiences are invalid. I mean, you’re at where you’re at now because of it. Yeah. And I think a lot of people, that’s again, like falls back to the fear of, of thinking, well, who am I, the imposter syndrome thing there, that’s what I’m looking for. And, and it’s it’s, I wish more people would get over that. There’s so many people that have so many valuable and some, in some cases, invaluable experiences that others, somebody out there needs to hear, and they just won’t share it. 

[00:11:56] Jacqueline Wales: [00:11:56] Well, it’s, it’s the measurement piece, isn’t it. We measure ourselves by looking at what other people have accomplished. And we, we look at it in terms of, well, I’m, I’m not there. I didn’t have that. But one of the things I’ve realized is that a lot of people live their lives vertically. They go up the ladder and they get their promotions, so on and so forth. Now I never went near corporate during my lifetime, except for brief periods, because I knew I’d never fit in. I was not going to follow the rules. So I lived my life horizontally. So the difference between a vertical life and a horizontal life, in my opinion, is there’s a lot more variety in the horizontal life

[00:12:36] Mike: [00:12:36] Absolutely. Absolutely. 

[00:12:39] Jacqueline Wales: [00:12:39] That is a very rich experience that you bring to it. But you mentioned the imposter syndrome. Korn Ferry just did a, uh, a survey of thousands of, uh, executives and found that that was one of the main reasons why people didn’t go forward for promotion.

[00:12:56] They didn’t think that they were capable or that they were credible enough and the credibility factor is huge. And that’s another piece of the fearless. Thing right there. If I don’t feel like I have the credentials, the credibility to be able to stand up and have a voice in this conversation, then I’m just going to stay really silent. And again, that’s a behavioral thing. 

[00:13:20] Mike: [00:13:20] Yeah. I wish I wish in my own case that I had done that in a couple of scenarios in my life where I should have stood up and said something. Um, cause I later found out I actually knew more than the person that actually got the position. And it’s, it’s one of those. So it happens, not diminishing anything for either gender, but humankind in general has this thing about not taking risks. It’s it’s like the life of comfort is, is the best thing. And yet it’s the worst thing. There’s no, there’s no absolute fulfillment in that, that I can see. 

[00:13:59] Jacqueline Wales: [00:13:59] When people talk about keeping status quo and right now we are in a pandemic and life has really been turned upside down for so many people.

[00:14:06] Mike: [00:14:06] Yes, it certainly has. 

Jacqueline Wales: You know, so the idea of security and safety and status quo has gone right out the window, you know? Um, and so the people who are not adjusting to this period of time that we’re in right now and knowing that we have to pivot, we have to think about, what would like to look like when we’re moving forward?

[00:14:27] Because one of the great gifts of this period is it’s helping people to reset their priorities. 

Mike:  Absolutely. I agree.

Jacqueline Wales:  They’re starting to take a look at, you know, my life might’ve been a far more complicated than it needs to be. Now, let’s face it, us humans, we’re very good at making lives more complicated than it needs to be.

[00:14:41] Mike: [00:14:41] It it’s, it’s a, it’s a gift for some weird reason. It really is. I mean, it’s a solid gift of human kind to screw things up really good. And we don’t even need technology for it. 

[00:14:54] Jacqueline Wales: [00:14:54] Yeah. Why go the easy route when you go the hard route? 

[00:14:57] Mike: [00:14:57] Absolutely. I see a nice straight path. No, that’s boring. I like this mountain here. That’s got all this shit on it. 

[00:15:03] Jacqueline Wales: [00:15:03] Yeah, it’s interesting.

[00:15:04] In the first book, I, I tell a story of four women who were standing at the entrance of this jungle, because I use the jungle metaphor, and they’re standing at the entrance of the jungle and they’re looking down this path and they’re going, yeah, I know that if I go to the other side of this, things are going to really shift. I’m going to be making some major changes and so forth. And then the question is how many actually made the journey? And the answer is none because there’s no guarantee. No guarantee if you’re actually going to get to the other side of it.

[00:15:31] Mike: [00:15:31] Ah, that almost, that almost, that almost sounds like the old four doctors with a flat tire joke. It’s, you know, they get a flat tire, they all get out. One goes over and pokes it, says, feels flat. Other one kicks it says, yep. It looks flat too. Third one just kind of looks at it. And so. It appears flat. Number four goes, I think we can all agree we need to do more tests.

[00:15:54] This is human. This is humankind. This is just how we are. It is, it is the weirdest thing to me that humans will just consistently go, Oh yeah, maybe. Nothing changes if you keep saying. Yeah. Well, yeah, maybe. How about try something? which is something that a former president of ours once said, Theodore Roosevelt, try something. If it doesn’t work, try something else, but don’t sit there and do nothing. 

[00:16:15] Jacqueline Wales: [00:16:15] And he’s the one who said, All we have to fear is fear itself. 

[00:16:19] Mike: [00:16:19] And that’s the other one that he said, we’re going to take a quick break, you guys, and when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about inspiration. Cause there’s, there’s some stuff I’m sure that really motivated Jacqueline about all of this.

[00:16:28] And this is a, so far been a, a killer fun conversation, and there’s a reason that I’m not letting her talk all about it. You guys are going to have to go find her to learn the rest of this. So hang in there, we’ll be back in about 30 seconds. 


[00:16:42] And we’re back here. Java chat speaking with Jacqueline Wales, talking about the Fearless Factor. Second section, we always talk about what inspires our speakers and our guests. And I got a feeling we got some, we got a pretty good story behind this one, as far as what actually inspires. Well, let’s, let’s, let’s do two. Let’s start with what inspired you to get after this? And then what continues to inspire you?

[00:17:09] Jacqueline Wales: [00:17:09] I think what inspired me, really from the get go, way before I knew I was going to do this, was my family. Um, I had a very troubled background with, you know, children. I’d given one up for adoption. I’d left one with his father. And the third one, I decided that I really needed to get my act together and face the demons that have been running my life for a long time.

[00:17:34] Um, and then I went on to have two more children after that. So, uh, the children was really the biggest inspiration for me. I knew that they deserved better and having come out of a really damaged and dysfunctional background, um, this was going to be my gift to myself and to them as well. And hopefully raise healthy human beings, which now they’re all adults and totally healthy human beings, for the most part. They’ve still got their quirks.

[00:18:04] Mike: [00:18:04] Eh, I think every human does, but that’s, that’s a hell of an inspiration. It’s a great why. I mean, the reason I do my stuff is to show my son, who’s starting to try to make his way through that, that, you know, put in the work in the right spot and things, things can go well. Yeah. So that’s a good thing. So what continues to inspire you now? Who are some of the people that you look up to? Who are some of, what are some of the books you’ve read? What are some of the things that make you go, Yeah, I’m on. 

[00:18:31] Jacqueline Wales: [00:18:31] You know, I was watching a video yesterday. Um, a man called Robert Scott, I think is his last name. He went on this expedition with his son to walk to the South Pole. It’s a 600 mile journey. And there was a video made of it. And. I was watching this and thinking about this man who was 61 years old and I’m now in my sixties. So, you know, and I have no problems with that. I’m actually proud of the fact that I’m still alive. 

[00:19:02] Mike: [00:19:02] You’re still here. That’s right. 

[00:19:03] Jacqueline Wales: [00:19:03] And I’m still here and I’m just getting started. Um, so watching him moved me profoundly because a certain part of the journey, the, he was overcome by the fatigue and the cold and everything else, even though he’d already done the North Pole, here he was on the South Pole with his son and they had trained well for it.

[00:19:26] But at around the 300 mile mark, he just, I can’t do this. And so they sent him back to base camp and his son continued the journey. 

Mike:  Wow. 

Jacqueline Wales: And then he came back like, you know, 140 miles later. He came back into the expedition in order to finish it and walk to the South Pole. But you know, those kinds of stories for me are phenomenal examples of the human spirit’s ability to overcome. Now, I’ve done martial arts and I did martial arts for 12 years. I have a black belt in karate and I got it on my forty-ninth birthday. 

Mike: Wow. 

Jacqueline Wales: I didn’t start it until I was 43. So, you know, I was 43. I got a red belt in TaeKwonDo, got a black belt in karate, in Shotokan karate. And my teacher would stand there, and I would be feeling really, really tired, and he would say again, again. So I had to do the routine up and down the floor over and over and over again. And he told me one day, he said, you do your best work when you’re exhausted, because you’re not thinking about it anymore. You’re just doing it. And I would find myself like there would be a wall there.

[00:20:35] It would feel like a wall. And then you had a choice. I could either stop. There’s a wall. Or I could go over under it and around it, or through it. And of course my nature is to go through it. So, you know, that that was a big piece for me. Uh, one of my teachers said that I was a warrior and I say, yes, I’m a warrior from the healings of Scotland.

[00:21:00] Mike: [00:21:00] They’re the best ones. They’re the best ones. It’s interesting. You just said something that mirrors, um, David Meltzer just said the same kind of thing about going over, under, or through last week. Um, so this’ll be a nice little refresher for everybody. If you, if you haven’t listened to, David’s go listen to his too, but that’s clearly an absolute truth.

[00:21:22] The wall presents a choice and you, you can, you can stand and look at the wall and go, wow, pretty red brick. I can’t do anything here. Or you can say it’s just brick. And then, which is, which is interesting. If people don’t understand, while red brick can hold up a whole building red brick can also be broken.

[00:21:41] Yes. And in short order, what most people don’t realize it can be broken in short order, it takes a choice to take a sledgehammer to it or to find a way around it or over it or under it as you mentioned. 

[00:21:51] Jacqueline Wales: [00:21:51] Yeah. Yeah. And that’s an important piece. And having broken through bricks with my hand at a certain point. You know, there’s a lot of, it’s just that pure focus and the strength and determination. I used to talk about six things that I learned in martial arts, and this might inspire your audience too. The first one is commitment. You’ve got to be committed to the fight. The second piece is the focus. You’ve got to have your focus in the right place.

[00:22:18] You’re not watching somebody’s hands and feet. You’re looking at their face. You’re walking, looking into their eyes. Then there has to be thousands of hours of discipline in order for you to do things instinctively. The next part of that is follow through. If somebody throws a punch or kick, you’ve gotta be able to follow it up with something, then there’s gotta be consistency. If you’re not consistent about how you’re doing things, then you’re, then you’re gonna fail. And the last piece of perseverance, fall down, get up, fall down, get up. You’ve got to go for it every single time. And I learned all this in martial arts. And it applies to everything in life, in my opinion.

[00:22:53] Mike: [00:22:53] Your yours and many opinions, especially a lot of the coaches that we know and people that are out there sharing this. That’s a lot of them like to focus on certain portions of it like persistence and consistency. Uh, those are definitely necessary. Some focus only on the discipline, some focus only on the commitment. Um, the holistic ones like martial artists and so on. They’ll go through all of that. Cause that, that’s absolutely true when you’re, when you’re looking at your opponent’s eyes, you already know what they’re going to do before they do that’s right.

[00:23:21] Jacqueline Wales: [00:23:21] Yeah. That’s it. So it’s a windows thing, you know. 

[00:23:25] Mike: [00:23:25] I never understood that when I first got into martial arts, um, years ago, years ago. Um, and I don’t actively practice, although I might start going back again just for fun. Um, but back in those times, when they kept saying, don’t worry about where the weapon is, don’t worry about where their hands or their feet are going, watch their eyes.

[00:23:46] There’s going to be some telegraph in their eyes that’s going to tell you what they’re going to do and you’ll see it. And when I, I think I was in my like eighth or ninth year, I finally started understanding what they were telling me. Cause I was watching somebody one day in our, in our sparring. And although my reaction wasn’t the right one, I knew he was going to pick up and kick. I could see it in his face. It was weird. It was just the weirdest thing. It’s like, he’s going to kick me. Phump, he did. Uh, it wasn’t able to block it because I, the realization had me like stopped. I was, I was like, no, really? Thump. Yes, really? That is exactly what happens.

[00:24:24] Yeah. I think if, I think if people understand life is going to telegraph you, those same things, it’s, it’s always been. An interesting gift to be able to step back and see the larger picture beyond my, my own little journey of what’s going on. Um, some of it’s scary, but a lot of it is like, I can appreciate why this is about to go down.

[00:24:48] I can appreciate what it is and the hope that the lesson that’s coming will be learned. Um, and sometimes I’m, I’m pleased and sometimes I’m disappointed. Uh, and this is not just with me. This is with others that I see too. Um, but I’m proud when I can see, you know, friends or even strangers get past that fear and just realize, yeah, this is just something I got to get through.

[00:25:12] Jacqueline Wales: [00:25:12] To your point, the inspiration piece, my client does that for me all the time. 

[00:25:17] Mike: [00:25:17] There you go. 

[00:25:19] Jacqueline Wales: [00:25:19] I mean, I watch them. They come in and they’ve got all this crapola going on. And I, you know, I cut through it, like, you know, boom, I got it. You know, I got your number instantly, so let’s go deal with it. Um, and uh, you know, they call me No Bullshit. So, you know, they inspire me because I watch them grow and, and that’s, that’s a tremendous gift right there. 

[00:25:43] Mike: [00:25:43] So what inspires them? Like, what’s the biggest fear that you see them break past and all of a sudden they go, Oh shit, I get it. 

[00:25:52] Jacqueline Wales: [00:25:52] Um, there’s a variety, but the big one that comes up is fear of failure. Fear of failure keeps so many people from moving forward. And what I like to say about failure is an expectation or a decision that was made that wasn’t the right one.

[00:26:09] So we have one option, which is to say next, try something different because we’re all failing our way to success. Yeah. And if you understand that principle, then you’ll take more risks. You’ll put yourself out there. I mean, what’s the worst that can happen, right? You know, you’re not going to die from it. You’ll just simply have to make adjustments and ultimately learn from it.

[00:26:32] Mike: Absolutely. 

Jacqueline Wales:  It becomes the major thing, but there’s other issues that come up too. The confidence factor is huge, in my conversations. Um, and you know, again, that belief in oneself, because fundamental to fear is I’m not good enough. And when you tap into that place, where you say, are you really not good enough, nine times out of 10, they’ll go, well, of course, I’m good enough. So why do you choose to believe that? Because that’s your choice. Yeah. You know, moving beyond that is, is important. As I mentioned earlier, 

[00:27:08] Mike: [00:27:08] Do you think fear of choice happens to stop a lot of people? Cause that’s what I’m hearing is that people fear just choosing sometimes.

[00:27:18] Jacqueline Wales: [00:27:18] Yeah, yeah. And what I like to say is, even if you don’t choose, you’re making a choice. 

[00:27:23] Mike: [00:27:23] I remember this, I heard that from a mentor years ago, you cannot decide to not decide cause you just decided. 

[00:27:29] Jacqueline Wales: [00:27:29] Yes. Yeah. That’s right. So, you know, look at it this way, everything we do in life is a choice. You know, every little aspects of our existence has been a choice at some, and sometimes that choice was a good one and sometimes it was really bad, but you know, we live and learn and hopefully grow. 

[00:27:50] Mike: [00:27:50] Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that’s, that’s completely valid. All right, guys, we’re going to take one more, 30 second break and we’ll come back. We’ll talk a little bit more about what Jacqueline’s doing now.

[00:28:00] What she’s well, we’re gonna talk a little bit about the books too, that you’ve written, especially the one that, The Fearless Factor, I think is the book. The second book. 

Jacqueline Wales: Fearless Factor at Work.

Mike: Got it. Even better. All right, so we’ll take another 30 second break and we’ll be right back. 


[00:28:14] And we’re back here. Java chat sitting here, chatting with Jacqueline Wales, the fearless factor, some crazy stuff we’ve been talking about over the last 30 minutes. Um, especially in the power of being fearless. Um, the last section is usually about what it is that you’re doing now. Obviously we, we kind of talked about that. You have a coaching practice, you speak, you’re an author, you do those kinds of things. I wanted to kind of just shift that a little bit and talk a little bit more about that, um, the fearless factor. you have a book coming out that’s called The Fearless Factor at Work, correct? Okay. And then the whole thing about fear and uncertainty, I mean, what are some “tips and tricks” that people can use to be able to just get past that.

[00:28:59] Jacqueline Wales: [00:28:59] So the, the most interesting piece for me is that when you find yourself reluctant to engage, I asked you to push a little harder.

[00:29:14] That’s, that’s the thing. And you also have to look at what’s the inner dialogue that’s taking place. Write it out. Because we always have something going on and when you put it on paper, suddenly it doesn’t look so damn threatening as it did when it was running around in your head. You know how many times you get up at three in the morning?Oh my God, what’s going on? We’ve all done it. You know, I even I do it. 

[00:29:35] Mike: [00:29:35] Yep. Oh yeah. Yep. 

[00:29:39] Jacqueline Wales: [00:29:39] But putting it on paper helps to articulate what is really. What is the truth of this? And that’s the big question on this? Are your fears true? Do you have empirical evidence? If you don’t have an empirical evidence, I, you know, there’s, there’s something coming towards me that I know it’s going to wipe me out.

[00:30:01] Yeah. I’m going to run like hell to get away from that, but I’m just making stuff up in order to try to figure out what labels we’re putting on stuff, because we’re all good at putting labels on stuff, putting it on paper is really a big piece of that. But again, asking that question, is it true? And nine times out of 10 you’ll find out, No, it’s not. 

[00:30:21] Mike: [00:30:21] Yeah. I, I learned, I learned that a long time ago that when your brain won’t quit, like it won’t shut up, that if you just sit down and write it all out, it doesn’t matter if it makes sense or not just write it all out. Every thought that you got for the next, like five minutes, just keep writing until you got nothing left. All of a sudden you look at the paper and go, Jesus, no wonder I was messed up. Look at this shit. 

[00:30:46] Jacqueline Wales: [00:30:46] That’s right. And another way of approaching it is instead of thinking about all the things you don’t have. All the things you won’t have, all the things that are not coming your way, because that’s what you want.

[00:30:57] Then start to think about what are the things you’re grateful for. And when you start being that, that, that I keep a journal on that every day of write some gratitudes about, you know, what what’s really happening in your life that you can feel happy about. Um, that suddenly shifts things too. I mentioned failure earlier. People say, I’m afraid of failure. I say, well, why don’t you write down the two columns. One is the success side and one’s the failure side. And I guarantee you, your success is going to be a whole lot longer than your fail side. Cause that’s just life, so when you look at this. And you say to yourself, okay, so I’ve gone through this before.

[00:31:35] Can I go through whatever that is that’s coming up for me. So we mentioned earlier asking for what you want. Yeah. What’s the worst thing that can happen? They say no. no, it’s not personal. It might just be that I don’t have time for this. Or it’s not in my wheelhouse or whatever the case may be, but that piece of accepting no, it’s a hard one for people because so much fear is around with the fear of rejection of judgment, uh, humiliation, uh, loss, of course, it’s a big one, you know, so these are just some of the things that, that we get into and failure and success are two sides of the same coin.

[00:32:15] People are just as afraid of success as they aren’t failure. So, you know, there’s a piece that we can wrap our heads around, but to that point of how do we get past the fear? Write the shit out and see what you come up with. Uh, because guaranteed you, or hire a coach, you know. Have something as a sounding board, so you can hold up your, your BS and say, you know, yeah, I get it. It is stuff I make up. 

[00:32:43] Mike: [00:32:43] It’s interesting. There’s another word that, or there’s another acronym that comes to mind when you’re talking about this, when you’re talking about the external of what could they possibly say, and when you, when they say no, there’s also the you saying no, you know, there’s that whole acronym, a FOMO.

[00:32:58] Yes. Fear of missing out. And it’s like, are you really going to miss out? If you say no. I mean, honestly, first off, does it really, is it really something that you want to go get involved in? Is that might end up just completely shifting your focus. Hello, where you’re supposed to be? Screw FOMO I’ve I’ve, and I’ve said no to a lot of stuff in my life where I wouldn’t be where I’m at now. In some cases, it may have been better. It may have been worse. You know, the best part is I really don’t care. 

[00:33:30] Jacqueline Wales: [00:33:30] Well, it doesn’t matter. 

[00:33:30] Mike: [00:33:30] That’s, that’s the point. I really don’t care. It doesn’t matter, whatever, whatever would have happened, hasn’t happened and that’s okay. And that, that right there, that statement took me years to get used to. And that’s okay. 

[00:33:44] Jacqueline Wales: [00:33:44] Yeah. Yeah. And there’s a piece where you get people stop themselves. Uh, you know, that’s, that’s a big one right there. Fear of missing out. And what are you missing? And is it really, you know, that’s to say, does it matter?

[00:33:56] Does it really, in the scheme of things, does it matter? And a lot of that you learn as you get older, frankly. You know what I mean, things that I did when I was younger and things I do today, I couldn’t even imagine that I would do what I’m doing. 

[00:34:08] Mike: [00:34:08] So what do you think are some of the most critical questions that we should be asking ourselves when we get into these situations?

[00:34:17] Jacqueline Wales: [00:34:17] My key question that I always come back to is what about this matters? 

[00:34:24] Mike: [00:34:24] I’ll write that down. Forgive me. Yeah. 

[00:34:26] Jacqueline Wales: [00:34:26] That is a key question on all of this. You don’t need a whole string of questions. Although if you go to any of my books, you’ll find plenty of questions because I finish every chapter, both in the fearless factor and the fearless factor at work with a series of questions, which are deep dive questions on self-reflection because that’s the piece that’s missing for a lot of people. I’ve had executives come to me and I say, you know, how much time do you spend in self-reflection? Oh, I don’t have time for that. Well, if you don’t have time for that, how the hell do you expect to grow, you know? 

[00:34:57] Mike: [00:34:57] How can you expect to lead? You don’t even know what the problem is with your own people. You’re not asking.

[00:35:01] Jacqueline Wales: [00:35:01] Exactly, precisely. So that’s, that’s a whole other piece right there. Absolutely asking yourself these questions is really, really important. And so that first one, what about this matters? Uh, I was taught that by a psychologist many, many years ago when I would have my story. And then he would say, so what about that matters?

[00:35:25] Mike: [00:35:25] That’s gotta be like a real kick in the teeth too, if you realize, Nothing. 

[00:35:30] Jacqueline Wales: [00:35:30] Yeah, exactly. And you know, you go for the why, I mean, you know, Simon Sinek talks about finding your why. Yeah. For me, it’s about finding out what about that matters. It’s not just the why of it. The why is an easy answer, you know, in some ways, but that’s a much deeper one.

[00:35:46] Mike: [00:35:46] I think, and then there are those people that get stuck in fear on what their why might actually be. And they’re not willing to admit it. 

[00:35:54] Jacqueline Wales: [00:35:54] Well,  again, that’s I’m not good enough. That’s where that one comes from. 

[00:35:55] Mike: [00:35:55] Ah, back to the imposter syndrome. Yeah. There are some days where I feel so much compassion for people that are like that. Cause you, you want to grab them and just. Shake them real good and go. It ain’t like that. It’s not that bad. 

[00:36:12] Jacqueline Wales: [00:36:12] I know, but you can’t say to someone just get over it. 

[00:36:15] Mike: [00:36:15] You never can. It’s, it’s, 

[00:36:17] Jacqueline Wales: [00:36:17] That makes people crazy. You know. 

[00:36:15] Mike: [00:36:15] I, I, you know, I, and I joked about that. Um, the old, you know, go back to college, get yourself an engineering degree, build a bridge.

[00:36:30] Um, and I always did it as a joke. Uh, it wasn’t, it wasn’t something that was meant. Sincerely. Uh, if I saw it was a real hurt, I’d be just like, all right, have a seat, let’s chat. But if it was like, really, is it really that bad? Is it really that bad? Let’s be honest. Okay. Go get the engineering degree. And they would laugh.

[00:36:47] They’d laugh at a little bit. We talk, but, and this is not coaching. This is just me talking with either friends, colleagues, or sometimes employees just like, come on. Really? I think, I think, um, I think one of the biggest things, and I’ve been culprit of this as well, is getting out of the small play mode. You know, don’t think small don’t play small, which is something I think you addressed too if I remember correctly.

[00:37:11] Jacqueline Wales: [00:37:11]A hundred percent, I mean, I had a, well-known 

[00:37:15] Jacqueline Wales: [00:37:15] I was in Vegas, and I was at a conference and we all had to stand up and talk about, you know, what was our plans and why we were there and so forth. And. I said my little piece and the guy looks at me from up on this podium and he looks over and he goes, so why are you playing so small? It was like, talk about making me feel small. I’m like, um well, you know. Not really sure.  

[00:37:45] Mike: [00:37:45] It’s not that you’re just at a podium looking down on me saying this. I mean, I really do feel small at this point and.

[00:37:50] Jacqueline Wales: [00:37:50] Like right, exactly. You know, and it pushes the conference, but you know, everybody’s playing large and blah blah blah, you know. Another one of them bullshit conferences.

[00:38:01] Mike: [00:38:01] I love when they do that too, it was like why you playing small. You’ve got to think bigger. Uh, okay. 

[00:38:07] Jacqueline Wales: [00:38:07] But the interesting thing is I’ve had, uh, you know, people tell me I have a big personality and I do, no question. And I would have people over the years say, you know, you can be in a much bigger playing field than you’re in right now.

[00:38:21] Yeah, I would say yeah probably, you know, but I wasn’t feeling it, so, you know, at this point in time I’m like, yeah, whatever it takes me, you know, I’m of a certain age where I’m on the short end of the stick. So what the hell, have some fun. 

[00:38:36] Mike: [00:38:36] What does that mean? I used to, I used to, uh, I used to worry about what my thoughts were before I said anything these days.

[00:38:43] It’s like, what the hell? Let’s see what happens. 

[00:38:45] Jacqueline Wales: [00:38:45] Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. See where it gets you. That’s my tagline. 

[00:38:50] Mike: [00:38:50] So, so long as it doesn’t get you beat up. Yeah. Go for it. You know what I mean? 

[00:38:55] Jacqueline Wales: [00:38:55] If somebody wants to beat you up. Well, you know, we’ll get the old skills back into being again.

[00:38:59] Mike: [00:38:59] For those, for those that have it. Yes, absolutely. So. Okay, where are you doing now? Where are you at? Where can people find you all of that? Let’s, let’s go, let’s go through it. Right. 

[00:39:11] Jacqueline Wales: [00:39:11] I have the spent a lot of this year creating what I’m calling a six-week accelerated change program. It’s called the Fearless Change program. And I take people on a six-week dive into deep self-reflection, uh, looking at their belief systems, their how they’re communicating, how they’re being authentic in the world.

[00:39:33] Um, building resilience and influence. And if they’re in any kind of transition, we address some of that. And we put together a really amazing program. I just did the beta test to this. And, uh, the results were phenomenal. People are really shifted the needle on change in that very short period of time. Uh, it’s also facilitated coaching. So, you know, I’m very much hands-on, it’s not just sign up and do the online program.

[00:40:00] Mike: [00:40:00] Right, right, right, right. Well, yeah, you gotta, you gotta have the person who understands it the best teaching it for sure. 

[00:40:05] Jacqueline Wales: [00:40:05] They get coaching with it. Um, they, they get group coaching with it as well as all the resources that go along with it. So I’m really proud of that. So the first time I really brought together the, all of the learning in this way. And I’m looking forward to seeing what I do with it. Next year. The book, The Fearless Factor at Work, just came out. It’s been getting great reviews. Uh it’s on Amazon, it’s available for sale. And, um, I’ve had some really tremendous endorsements from leading, a leading, thought-leading figures.

[00:40:37] Um, And, um, beyond that, the website, the Fearless Factor At Work, um, has a tremendous amount of resources on there that people can go and help themselves to. That will help them, uh, make some changes in their life. But, uh, it’s um, you know, it’s, there’s a lot going on right now. This has been a tremendous year for me, uh, creating the kind of content and, and processes that really will accelerate change in people. 

[00:41:11] Mike: [00:41:11] Sweet. That’s awesome. We will have all of those links, everybody that’s watching, down on the bottom in the comments. And if you have questions, feel free to post a comment, questions in the comment section, um, Jacqueline will have the link to the, to the video.

[00:41:25] So if anybody posts, she can check it out there. An either answer there, or if you want get over to her website, which she put it in, the fearlessfactoratwork.com. I’m sure you can message her there as well. Um, all of her social and stuff will also be down there. It’ll also be on the anchor.fm. Main site, uh, where we actually host our podcast.

[00:41:44] So feel free to catch up with her there. Uh, I hate to say it, but the time has already passed. This happens with every guest and it’s really annoying. Cause there’s so much to say, um, We always end the same. You all know that we, we all love you and we want the best for you. So, you know, do what you must.

[00:42:08] And in this case, take it on, be fearless, use the fearless factor and really get into it, figure out where you got to do, what you got to do, and where you need to go to do it. Figure out where you got to do. That’s funny. Um, but again, we love every, every one of you. If you’re watching on YouTube, make sure you subscribe.

[00:42:27] Hit that little bell next to it. So, you know, when the next one comes on, because we’ll be having more awesome speakers and people like this coming on to Java, chat, sharing their stories, sharing their inspiration, sharing their insights. If you’re on any of the podcast platforms, make sure you download a subscribe, feel free to follow us on anchor.fm, which is where we actually host.

[00:42:46] And if you want, you know, you could support us there every little bit helps. Um, I think we also just got onto podchaser, which is a new platform, so please feel free to follow us there, uh, and write us a review. Let everybody know that you enjoy what we’re doing. And I think that’s the last one. So stay up, stay safe, stay healthy.

[00:43:12] Live for Jacqueline Wales and myself, Coffee with Mike. Ciao for now.

[00:43:26] Outro: [00:43:26] For more information on Java Chat, visit www.javachatpodcast.com. You’ve been listening to Coffee with Mike on Java Chat. Tune in weekly to this podcast for the next episode. You can also download or subscribe today on your favorite podcast platform, a production of Oasis Media Group, LLC. Located in Las Vegas, Nevada, copyright 2019.

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